Ok, folks, I’m serious here, this time I really need your input. So put on your critical thinking caps and give a girl a hand.
Last week, I was thinking about all my NYC girlfriends and enjoying their stories of dating. Apparently, or so they tell me, “everyone” uses online dating sites in the States. My girls on the other side of the pond have a new man on their arms pretty much every night. Even though my lifestyle wouldn’t permit that kind of action, it got me to thinking: (here’s where I get all Sarah Jessica Parker on you)
“Do online dating sites in Italy work as well as in the States? What kind of men are on them?”
I decided to do some “research” in the name of journalistic curiosity. (Sorry, I don’t mean to offend any journalists out there who have actual credentials.)
I signed up for a site, loaded a few pictures of me from my Facebook page, and was trying to figure out all the cutesy little symbols and menus when I was informed that someone “wants to meet you.”
Whoa, baby! That was quick. And I’m not even drunk yet!
I figure out how to message the guy and I send a note: “How does this site work? I just joined.”
We ended up chatting for over a half hour. He was quick-witted, has a responsible and legal job, even has kids, which for me was a plus since all the men I’ve met so far my age don’t have kids and therefore have a really hard time relating to my life with three kids.
I ask, “Are you separated?”
He says, “Separated inside the house.”
I was just about to cue the epic fail horn, when I remembered my mission to my readers, and my own curiosity got the best of me. WTF IS THIS SEPARATI DENTRO CASA THING?
I didn’t ask right then and there. I assumed it to mean that he was legally separated from his wife and that they shared the same house but maintained separate bedrooms and were basically the emotional equivalent of roommates.
Herein, as a foreshadowing of what was to come (which of course my Italian readers and all readers less naive than I am will have already seen coming), I will offer up a phrase that one of my high school teachers, who was a real hard-ass former US Marine, used to say to us all the time:
“When you assume, you make an ASS out of YOU and ME.”
Get it? Get it? Because, I’m here to tell you: it’s true.
Anyhoo, we exchange phone numbers and start texting over the next few days. He’s lovely. Good looking, sweet, charming, smart. Total pitter-patter.
Finally we talk on the phone. At one point, I have to address the elephant in the room.
“So…separated at home. What exactly IS that, anyways? I mean… are you still married?”
“Yes. My wife… blah blah blah blah”
I think this is the point when the Twilight Zone song started playing in my head and my eyes started to cross.
But, being the curious know-it-all nosy brat that I am, I start grilling him.
“But, but, but… wait. Help me to understand this. You can’t possibly sleep in the same bed though, right?”
“Of course we do! Otherwise how would the kids see it?”
Here’s where, had I been drinking any sort of beverage, it would have splattered out of my mouth all over the wall. If it were milk, and if this had made me laugh, it would have been coming out of my nose.
“WHAAA?”
As we delve now into my subjective analysis of this phenomenon, I offer you two caveats:
1) I am American living in Italy. I love my adopted country but am often mystified and intrigued by its ways. I haven’t heard of arrangements like this in the States. I may be wrong. I’m not here to morally judge, either. I’m one person with my own views. So, like don’t hate on me for anything I say, because, duh. I’m not here to beat up on anyone. I just want to figure this out.
2) Um, maybe both were in the above one.
So, he goes on to explain that, “for all intents and purposes, we’re separated.” (Um, ok?) Financially, he tells me, totally two independent entities. (Thus now you can’t tell me that you still live together because you wouldn’t be able to afford your own place, which is the only possible justification I could see for a situation like this.)
I say, “Wow. Because, I’ve been separated and now divorced for nearly two years, and frankly the idea of having to live in the same house with my ex, even though we’re on good terms, well, that just wouldn’t be good for the kids.”
He says, “Well, you have to put your kids before yourself. I can’t imagine not waking up to my kids every morning.”
Now, I’m no psychologist, but when you read that in black and white, it’s a direct contradiction. Put kids before self + my needs come first because I don’t want to not wake up to them every morning = one confused Shelley. But, whatever.
I say, “But if you consider yourself separated, but you’re still married, and she’s still technically your wife, and you still sleep in the same bed, and live together, I don’t understand how that’s separated.”
He says, “Because I love my kids so much that I’m willing to live with someone who I would rather tell to go to hell, but it’s important for kids and their fragile infantile egos to see that mom and dad still care about each other and live together. I mean, sometimes we hug and stuff, just to fake it for them.”
(FYI his children are younger than 10 but older than 5.)
I say, “Well, I think you’re underestimating your children. What you call “their fragile infantile egos” are actually quite acute. How long do you think you can pretend and play this game? I bet you they already understand.”
At this point, I guess my grilling was becoming not such the fun and flirty situation he had been looking for, because he abruptly said, “Let’s change the subject.”
I say, “Why? Does it make you uncomfortable talking about this? Because I’m really curious about how it works. I think it’s a cultural difference. I don’t know any Americans who do this.” (Once again, I’m just one person. I’m not trying to say it doesn’t exist. But I certainly don’t think it’s commonplace.)
He says, “Well, you Americans are too quick to divorce. You break up in such a hurry and divorce so quickly.”
Mah. I don’t know how to respond to that. I mean, I’m divorced at a fairly young age. I was with my ex-husband for 10 years, however, and I’ve never dated in Italy until now. So I can’t really comment on much there.
Folks, I don’t know. Truly. I mean, I don’t have moral objections to couples living their lives the best way they see fit. I don’t think it’s for me to judge ANYONE for how they choose to live their life, so long as they don’t hurt others or impede on others’ freedom or right to live the way they want to live their lives. “Live and let live” so to speak.
For me personally though, I find it really hard to wrap my head around the proposition of becoming emotionally involved with a man who goes to bed with his wife every night, regardless of whether or not it’s an agreed arrangement between both parties that they can see other people. I suppose it would be like getting involved with someone who told you that he or she has an “open” marriage. I have no moral objections to it. But, as a woman who, maybe naively, hopes to find a quality partner who can help me to grow as a person, share my life, hopes, dreams, failures, etc., all that stuff that I think many people hope for in a partner, my question to you and to myself is: How can that be done in a situation like this?
Like so many things in life: it’s complicated.
Maybe that’s where Zuckerberg came up with the relationship status for Facebook.
Sigh. Back to the drawing board, I suppose. I don’t think I’ll be trying anymore online meeting sites anytime soon, however.
Though I don’t really get the “separazione in casa” mentality, it is pretty viable here- and has a long history– whether its about economics, well-being of the kids or simply putting on a good face. It may seem shocking to you, but its kind of normal– and even in the US, it has been done. Heck, in the US, they’ve even redefined how its done– whereas a couple share a house- but former spouse is only present when s/he has custody. This is so that the kids do not have to experience the trauma of mega-life chances and the stress of bouncing back and forth. Does it work? Ask my friend Sabrina, she seems to be doing just fine.
Well you know that me and my ex actually tried that arrangement and it failed miserably. To each his own, I guess. My concern would be the difficulty of navigating the emotional waters of falling for a person and caring deeply for them, yet having to sidestep the complications of a living situation that makes it impossible for me to ever be seen as anything significant in this man’s life as far as his family is concerned. I’m sure that’s thinking way too far ahead, but if we’re going to make ourselves vulnerable to another human being, especially if it turns intimate, then I guess we need to know ourselves well enough to know whether we are capable of handling the fall out. I don’t think that I am, and I’m probably too fragile right now to attempt it. The shame of it is that I really like the guy.
It’s probably definitely more common in Italy than in the US (I’ve heard of several cases of this in Italy – mainly b/c they can’t afford to live separately but it’s about the kids, too) but I also know of a couple living together, legally separated, on the East Coast because of their twins…it’s hard for me to judge (especially when financial reasons are in the mix) but I think like you said, at one point the kids will know the truth. If they can live together without getting cruel / hateful it’s one thing, but that seems like a tall order for many separated couples – you’re getting a divorce for a reason.
Yeah, my concern really is all about me in this situation and trying to protect my own heart. But I know that many different emotional situations exist and that couples who are meant to be together can find ways to make things work. Plus I don’t know the guy at all. But the situation itself kind of throws me off balance. Not saying it’s good or bad. Honestly. Just trying to be aware enough of potential pitfalls so that I can avoid adding hurt on top of hurt. Then again, I guess nothing in this life is hurt-proof, is it? Esp. when it comes to matters of the heart.
Right, there’s two separate situations: the health & happiness of that family, and the health & happiness of any future relationships or families….they don’t seem to easily co-exist without conflict of interest!
Good luck!
Ha. Good call.
One of my sisters in law fell for a man who was thus separated from his wife (and their daughter being 20 or so!). Both he and his still then wife had separate lives except she still did his laundry or so. My sister in law had to threaten to call the relationship off to have the guy finally move out and start a divorce procedure!
The truth is that a lot of men will not leave unless physically kicked out (or dragged out forcibly by another). My feling is that women would tend more to bolt out at the first opportunity (and given the price of lodgings in Italy, that can last for a while).
I would never tell a man to leave his wife, or get together with a man in the hopes that he would eventually leave his wife for me. That seems naive and unrealistic. That’s why I think this is an issue. Because women like me, who are extremely sensitive and vulnerable and not looking for just a sexual affair but for a man who can be a quality partner in their lives, I think speaking for myself this is a tricky situation because it’s difficult for me to see how my “role” could ever be defined as anything more than simply “lover on the side.”
Oh cara if this weren’t so chillingly true I’d be laughing. This bloke is just looking for comfort. Food on the table, washing done, happy Mulino Bianco children. Plus an online screw on the side. What lazy thinking! Not to have the balls to be independent and let his children deal with honesty. Oh course his kids know, and if they don’t he’s doing more harm by lying to them, making them live a model that doesn’t work. It’s freaky! And selfish and risky.
You deserve so much better. And no I don’t think web dating works here. It is still sleazy. If I read another ‘Solare e passionale’ I will puke!
Yeah, I had heard that mainly the guys on online dating here in Italy were perverted, or sleazy, or whatever. Since I am the type of person who always has to see it for herself, I decided to take the plunge and do some investigating. It all goes back to the adage “It happens when you’re not looking!”
I know plenty of situations like this in the States but I used to live in L.A. and NYC.
Dating in America is not like dating anywhere else. Online dating is a numbers game. That’s why your friends have a date with a different guy all the time. I tried online dating in L.A. and hated it. It was too much of a hook-up vibe. Look at how the personals on Craigslists go on for pages and pages in L.A. In Rome? Nada.
I prefer the old school method of meeting men through friends, family, etc. so I know the man is not crazy, an asshole, and I know we will have something in common (birds of a feather). In L.A. most people date online because it’s a less social place than here. You’re in your car all the freaking time. You only go out to network. So how can you meet anyone? No one even flirts!!
Here you go out in groups, you meet, and then it’s understood you’re dating.
When I first moved to Rome, I asked my Italians friends if online dating was big in Rome like it is in NYC and L.A.. Mind you they are a few years older than you, in their late 30s and early 40s. They were blunt. No. It’s not. It is getting more popular among younger people but for our generation, it’s not done. So you can imagine the type of guys who are using it now. Maybe this will change. The only women I know who date online here are expats. I checked out Match.it. I understood immediately what my friends were saying. Not saying I won’t try it in the future, but for now it’s a pass.
My friend added, if you are looking for a specific kink, then apparently it’s the same as the US. There are more men on the sites like AFF than women.
Quick thought: it seems that the real issue here is trust. Can you trust a guy who is separated? Can you trust on line dating? Can you trust Italian guys? And the list goes on. I don’t think the answer can come in absolutes. Think about it as if it is a margarita– kind of sweet, can get you loopy, but has just enough salt on the rim to keep you doubtful.
Can you trust a guy who is separated? Well, that would be like can you trust a woman who is separated or divorced. Sure, why not. But can you trust a guy who CLAIMS to be “separated” but continues to live as man and wife? I mean, what is that then, it’s a very gray area. Maybe he means he’s emotionally separated. But if that’s the case, how can you sleep next to the person every night? If it were just a “roommate” situation wouldn’t you have separate beds? Something doesn’t add up, but that’s just the way I see things.
In any case the only reason I put all this out there is because I find it fascinating. There are so many different ways to live and so many different situations. I think the trick, as with most things in life, is just knowing YOURSELF well enough to understand what will work for you and what won’t. If I were looking for a frivolous fling, this just might be perfect! But I’ve tried frivolous fling and it left me feeling empty.
“separated but sleeping in the same bed” is fucked up, mainly because with all the money you just saved on rent, you can buy an air mattress or hammock. I think its good to know what you like and don’t like about dating– for me, it was vegetarians and jacked teeth. For 2013, I would add “sleeping in same bed as wife” and also red pants.
yeah, that would be my main concern too. Is he really telling the truth? Isn’t that what men (and women too, I guess?) have been saying forever – “We don’t love each other anymore, we are essentially separated already, I’m going to leave her, we’re only still together for the kids” yadayada and then you find out later that none of it was actually true, that ‘sleeping next to each other’ and ‘occasional hugs’ also included ‘occasionally sleeping with each other’ and hey, the other partner actually had NO IDEA that they were “separated” and so on.
Not saying this is the case with this man, or that these situations don’t work out for some people, obviously, but I personally couldn’t do it. Any of it.
Yes it is TOTALLY important for children to learn how to have a disfunctional relationaship rather than teach your children self respect.
Good. This is exactly what I was thinking. The reason I reach out to my peeps like y’all is because my mind and judgement regarding men post-divorce is not that reliable. Plus I’ve never dated; I was with my Roman ex-husband for ten years and met him literally on the first day I was in Rome. So I feel like a fish out of water, or rather, a deer caught in the headlights, a bit. Sometimes I feel a bit too naive and unguarded to be allowed loose around Italian men. I hate to stereotype, but boy have I had my share of cazzari. I tell you. It’s like I’m getting a master class in cazzarismo.
And I meant dysfunctional…
Oh you wanted to date this guy? Run!!!! I know you, sweetie. He is not for you.
You know me so incredibly well, sister, that that must have been YOU the little voice in my head that said run. Actually, to be honest, it was more specific. It actually said “RUN FOR THE HILLS!” No, I’m not kidding. It has said that to me before with other men, all of which you know about, but I didn’t listen.
AIN’T GONNA BE NO HOT DOGS ENDING UP IN THIS STORY, SISTER!!!! NOOOO!!!
I too have wondered about this type of situation. I’ve heard about it from different acquaintances that I have in Italy, and like you, I can’t quite wrap my head around it….
Well I’m glad to know I’m not the only one. Seriously, like Sara says above, if you’re separated or divorced, that’s for a reason, right? In my case it was. It’s the best for the kids. IMHO kids don’t NEED mom and dad living together as much as they NEED mom and dad to both be healthy emotionally and entitled to seek and find their own personal happiness in life. Happy mom and dad = happy kids and I truly believe that means even if both parents don’t live in the same house.
Ale and I did try sharing a house so as not to “disrupt” the kids, but it was far far more traumatic on them to see us both come and go, and confusing as to why mom and dad both slept at the same house with them but never at the same time. If a couple is separated, they’re separated, period.
When the guy said that sometimes he’s affectionate with his wife “to fake it” for the kids, I about lost my lunch. So disrespectful to the children. When it comes to kids I have very strong views about respect and I think far too many parents have little to no respect for the intelligence of the smaller human beings on this planet. After having worked in CPS I learned how sharp and resilient the little ones are, from a very very very young age. Never underestimate your children, folks. Never. (sorry getting off soap box now
)
My first thought when I read this post was that he wasn’t really “separated inside the house” but was just using it as an excuse to cheat on his wife. Do you think that’s true?
I have no idea but in this case I don’t think so. The married ones who don’t have an agreement with their wives to date other people are a lot more elusive and not as open. I’m sorry that I know that, but I do.
Shelley, did you meet the wife? Did she know she was seperated? I have a feeling she did not know because what self respecting woman would sleep in the same bed with a man who doesn’t love her?
That is what I thought as well. I know people who really seperate and seperate the house, so they build a wall and build a new kitchen and maybe share a bathroom or something they don’t sleep in the SAME BED!
I guess I am more cynical than any other commenters but I’m pretty sure that if this guy were in the US, there would be a website just for him – it’s called Ashley something and it’s a site where people go just to look for affairs. I would bet that the situation is more like what Annika guessed above – the wife may not even know they are separati in casa! Ha!
There are some real sleazeballs out there in any country in any part of the world, but I would take great care to protect yourself in Italy where monogamy is often loosely interpreted. I married an Italian and made sure to clear this up early in our relationship – we agreed that if one of us cheats, it’s a deal breaker for the other. It’s really the only absolute deal breaker that we ever talked about, actually. Forewarned is forearmed
Much appreciated.
Ashley Madison, BTW. I only know because it came up when I was doing “research” for my online dating article. Was mildly shocked then amused. I feel so naive sometimes.
Shelley,Shelley, Shelley
Get The Helley out of there…….
Heeee’s a baddun’ an’ no mistake.
You have listened to your quiet voice (and that of some lovely friends)
and you have your answer, sometimes intellectual generosity can just be a bit too
forgiving, throw us off piste, as women we have intuition for a reason.
yes, yes yes yes yes YES!
Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes.
I absolutely cannot allow myself to settle anymore, out of desperation. I’ve worked far to hard to build myself back up over these last two years.
THANK YOU for the support. It means a lot, even if virtual, this life is so lonely sometimes.
Ashley Madison is the site you’re thinking of. (Life is short. Herpes is free.) This guy sounds like your average swinger creep to me. I’m just surprised he’s not a dentist.
Really? Is there something about dentists???
I don’t think you’re naive about finding a quality relationship. People can be so liberal yet so unreasonably structured in their belief systems. He does “underestimate” children because he’s using them as an excuse to be a certain way, live a certain life, and then justify it with them as his gods. This is a great little snapshot of our egos masking our motives.
Thanks for your comments! I can’t judge, mainly because I don’t even pretend to begin to understand how an arrangement like this would work. Every couple is an entity unto itself. But therein lies the rub! EVERY COUPLE. Holy crap people, last time I checked, that meant TWO PEOPLE TOGETHER, no? Ugh. Not willing to be the third wheel. So degrading. In my book. Just looking for something different at this point in my life, I guess.
RUN! Especially if you really like him. Now. Before it’s too late. There is no point in setting yourself up for the pain that comes next when there is no good outcome here any way it plays out. I speak from experience – with married. with Italian, with separati in casa – impossible odds individually, insurmountable when all three are present at once…all while you juggle three toddlers. Remember: As much as we each would like to think otherwise, we are not the exception, we are the RULE. Experience and 3 toddlers means NOT playing the 1/1,000.000 odds that this man could be the next “the one” when at this point in your life I would imagine that you envision yourself making more experienced, more informed choices than you might have a decade ago. Hard as it may be, you might want to draw the line at situations that need to be crowd-sourced to figure out. The only way this guy could be a worse risk is if his mother were also living with them.
Do not discount how hard of a struggle it was for you to get all the way to the point you are at right now, and don’t overestimate how many times you will be willing to do that again. I find that it isn’t how old you get that determines your ability to fall in lust, in like, or in love or your ability to recover from it, it’s how many times your heart gets broken and how hard it is to start over emotionally and otherwise, each time it happens. Eventually it isn’t worth risking everything you’ve achieved for some schmuck who can’t own himself, or doesn’t have his shit together by now. And this guy is both.
Meaningless flings for you until that magical moment when all the traffic lights on Viale Marconi line up green so if you time it just right you can sail almost all the way in to EUR from the light under the bridge at the end of Viale Trastevere without stopping…. metaphorically, of course (yes, that really used to happen!).
Also GIANT RED FLAG: Cognitive dissonance. (kids first/me first).
But whatever you do, we’ve got your back.
This was the most interesting article on cultural shock I read in a long time. Although I have never heard of such thing as that on your article. I am from South America and where I am from we call this “realidad magica” (magic reality). Things that are very hard to believe but are real. Such example is that one time a news appear on the local tabloid that a Hippo was eating people in the country side. This obviously showed up on the tabloid because there are no Hipos in south america. Unless one escaped from the zoo. But there are no zoo in the country side anyways. A few week later another episode of the Hippo showed up. This time it was more noticed. Tabloids usually don’t repeat the same story twice. Now the real news went to investigate. They went to the country side and talked to the local people. A lot of local country men and women reported they had seen the Hippo. Then it showed up on the 9pm news, the most watched news. Then another Hippo incident. Then they called the Army. Now it showed up on CNN. People thought it was some kind of marketing scheme or that they were shooting a sci-fi movie about a Hippo. What then happened was that the Army went Hippo hunting and eventually it turned up. Point is that when someone tells you something in another country, and you think it doesn’t make sense, there is big chance is true. Read more about the Hippo here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/world/americas/11hippo.html?_r=0 or google: hippo colombia
Times must be a changing because at one time I was told by an Italian man that the only reason an Italian would join an online dating site was not with the purpose of getting into a relationship with someone but rather an easy way to get a casual hook-up. *shrugs shoulders*
I’ve tried online dating too and it isn’t much better here in Canada. I still feel the best way of meeting someone is just by going out and being seen and perhaps going to as many social events as you can.
I work at a children’s hospital, so i see all sorts of ‘living arrangements’ with separated parents. this situation you described (besides the sleeping in the same bed) is not as unique as any of you think! usually the reasons are a combination of financial and keeping the home stable for the children so they don’t have to be shifting from home to home. your guy’s situation does sound extreme, and he should not be looking for other relationships until his children are grown and he is out of his wife’s bed. Get outta there! Good luck!
Wow!! I am a lttle late to the party here. I know in Ny a lot of couples stay in the same apt because housing here is so expensive. But I think this guy is married and just looking to fool around. This being separated in the house sounds like an updated version of my wife doesn’t understand me. I have also found that men who are really recently separated are bad news. They need at least a yr to “recover”.